Juria Toramae: The trips were either early in the morning before sunrise, or before sunset, so while waiting for the light I would just help. And I realized, I’m learning a lot, because I didn’t think that these patch of lands that emerges would have so much life. In the beginning I didn’t see anything (laughing), I would just see, like, these worm poops or some crabs, but eventually you start seeing things like…when you see one animal, or a nudibranch, or a sotong, and then you start seeing more because your brain, your eyes just start seeing the patterns. And that’s how it got better, and I started documenting more. But the first few trips it was a disaster, I didn’t see anything. And I was so stressed out about stonefishes, because they’re everywhere, I mean, they’re present, and since the ‘60s there are documentations of like, how the ladies would say whenever they’re beach-combing or they’re reef-combing they have to be very careful, and sometimes they avoid certain reef flats because it’s infested. But some of them actually catch them and cook them, so, it’s fascinating. I think a history of a place, and the biodiversity of place, and memories of place, they are all connected, and if you want to talk about a place you have to talk about all these elements. [1:23] Joanne Leow: And what really strikes me is that, when you’re talking about it, in that ecology, humans are not some kind of separate outsider, when you talk about the beach-combers, they’re part of that ecology. Juria Toramae: Yeah. Joanne Leow: There is like an integral part of that. And, I mean, obviously then, I want to turn to that question about industrial encroachment, because so many of these islands, like you said, landfill, or refinery, are disappeared through, right, dredging, or— Juria Toramae: Or reclamation. Joanne Leow: —disappeared through reclamation. How do you think through that? Because there are so many forms of human manipulation of the environment: small-scale, and then also very large scale. What are some of your thoughts on that? Yeah we’re part of the ecology, but we’re also really altering it, right. [2:03] Juria Toramae: I mean, the interesting part is that the modification of these islands are mainly for industries and people don’t live there, it serves a function. Like all these islands had a role and now have a new role, like Pulau Bukom for example. They had a lot of villages back then, and then people were moved to Pulau Sudong so that they can make space for some of the Shell’s refineries, and they were moved, and eventually they were all moved. And, if you go closer it’s really depressing, you hear this humming sound (imitates sound), and this flaring, and all these steel and pipes, and…I don’t know, I mean, it’s quite monstrous in a way. But at night it’s quite beautiful because they all look like candles. It’s—I don’t know how to feel about it. I know I feel very down when I’m out there, and I wish that nature could take over. But also, I fear that when nature takes over, what would actually happen? The consequence of all these foreign—all these materials that are on the island, how are they going to recycle that or reuse that, I don’t know. If you think about how if the sea rises or if disaster strikes, or if somebody blows up something for example, the sea and everyone around us would be really really affected. Badly. [3:32] Joanne Leow: Yeah, because of the contamination and the chemicals. Juria Toramae: Yes, and…yeah.