Nuraliah: I’m Nuraliah Norasid and I am a research associate with the Centre for Research on Islamic and Malay affairs, but of course on the side I’m a writer. When a space is small, and then the thing is that some things that are uncomfortable becomes really uncomfortable. I think definitely that there is that, but there’s also…when it comes to, when you are in a space that is surrounded by the sea, what happens is that—and especially when there’s a lot of convergence, many different groups converges in one place—what happens is that, then it becomes more important for them to establish themselves. And so I think that’s where all of this, the policies that come through, the sort of social actions that come out, the way stratification and the marginalization comes through, it’s really, to be able to pin down—and unfortunately it’s the one that have the strongest stake that will be able to say where people should go. I think, yeah, it is definitely magnified by the space, because there’s so much working with so little, so it becomes imperative that you put the stakes in, and then you establish yourself, otherwise you’ll just be marginalized. [1:18] Joanne Leow: It’s really interesting to hear you talk about the space, and just jumping off of that I was thinking of the…I guess the word would be the control and the governmentality over the space in the universe of the book, and particularly when I’m thinking of the outcasts who kind of descend into this subterranean world. And when they go there, and it’s kind of this…like you were saying, it’s almost as if the stratification that you’re trying to discuss in the text is mirrored by the spatial constructions that are there, so, yeah, just a little bit more about that space, that descent into that hiding. [1:51] Nuraliah: This was something that was touched on a little bit in the book, it was when Ria and Barani was going in, then there was this person, Acra, that was just telling them that, well, the reason why they chose this place is because they know that there was settlement, and then that they couldn’t afford city living after their village was being torn down, and then…to make way for modernization. So, there’s that thing. I think where the government comes in, in terms of, how do you say, in terms of the control they have over land. And of course modernization is very very tied to the economics, after all, you want a certain—and like some places are being—you need to concentrate the population in certain places, you need to develop certain lands for certain reasons, and all of these reasons will end up being very economically inclined. And so, there is that. And then the way it then filters down is that the classes and those who are not able to afford living in the residential areas that have been set aside for them, and then they are forced to find other options. And so, then that’s how they end up in Nelroote. And then the way I was thinking is that, maybe in Singapore we don’t have an underground—or maybe we do, we just don’t know… Joanne Leow: Oh, we do, we kind of do, yeah. [3:17] Nuraliah: Yeah. I think not so much a physical underground, maybe someday that might happen, but we definitely have our little underground spaces, the spaces that kind of fall through the cracks, like Circuit Road and so on, Jelemina and everything. So, we do have those spaces, and then the reason why they’re there is they are not able to afford living anywhere else, and then a lot of the rental flats are there. And then of course what happens is that when all the rental flats are there, the land isn’t being developed. For example a lot of these old rental places are not developed, because the resources are placed somewhere else, and then because these places are not very well developed in terms of amenities and access, what happens is that the values of the house goes down, and of course the only people that can afford it will be the ones who cannot afford the neighbourhoods that have the access and amenities. It’s very difficult to pinpoint where it begins, because with Nelroote, in my mind, there was already this settlement that was living there, probably was they had been living there for a very long time, something they inherited from their ancestors who were the ones that left the catacombs in the first place. But, when the government decides to come in with their modernization projects, and they’re trying to develop this land for that, what happens is that the people who are evicted, who are displaced, you can either afford living in the spaces that have been designated for population, or you have to find other options, and then, unfortunately, this is the option, because it’s cheap, and it’s something that you can afford when you are fishermen trying to make a living when all these modern fishing crawlers are coming in, when you’re trying to make a living out of selling snail ornaments or, you know, homemade food and stuff like that. So yeah, that was what happened, so I was basing it in terms of that, how people are displaced.